98SE stops just after all programs are loaded.

[mm]

How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.

The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.

Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.


This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.


.....
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_ITAL.FON
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_ITAL.FON
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_SPAN.FON
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_SPAN.FON
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_SWED.FON
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\WST_SWED.FON
LoadStart = dibeng.dll
LoadSuccess = dibeng.dll
LoadStart = DIBENG.drv
LoadSuccess = DIBENG.drv
LoadSuccess = user.exe
LoadStart = MSGSRV32.EXE
LoadSuccess = MSGSRV32.EXE
Init = Final USER
InitDone = Final USER
Init = Installable Drivers
InitDone = Installable Drivers
Init = TSRQuery
InitDone = TSRQuery
[000D2491] Loading PNP drivers of SupraExpress 56e - PC V.90
(SERENUM\SUP2420\ACPI&*PNP0501&00000001)
[000D2491] Loaded PNP drivers of SupraExpress 56e - PC V.90
(SERENUM\SUP2420\ACPI&*PNP0501&00000001)
[000D2491] Starting SupraExpress 56e - PC V.90
(SERENUM\SUP2420\ACPI&*PNP0501&00000001)
[000D2492] Started SupraExpress 56e - PC V.90
(SERENUM\SUP2420\ACPI&*PNP0501&00000001)
[000D24FD] Enumerating Standard Floppy Disk Controller
(ACPI\*PNP0700\0)
[000D2504] Enumerated Standard Floppy Disk Controller
(ACPI\*PNP0700\0)
[000D2504] Enumerating TapeDetection
(TAPECONTROLLER\TAPEDETECTION\0000)
[000D254D] Enumerated TapeDetection
(TAPECONTROLLER\TAPEDETECTION\0000)
[000D285A] Enumerating Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator
(ROOT\SWENUM\0000)
[000D285C] Enumerated Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator
(ROOT\SWENUM\0000)
[000D285C] Enumerating Microsoft Kernel System Renderer
(SW\{A7C7A5B0-5AF3-11D1-9CED-00A024BF0407}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})
[000D285D] Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System Renderer
(SW\{A7C7A5B0-5AF3-11D1-9CED-00A024BF0407}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})
[000D285D] Enumerating Microsoft Kernel Audio Mixer
(SW\{B7EAFDC0-A680-11D0-96D8-00AA0051E51D}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})
[000D285D] Enumerated Microsoft Kernel Audio Mixer
(SW\{B7EAFDC0-A680-11D0-96D8-00AA0051E51D}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})
[000D28E9] Enumerating Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator
(ROOT\SWENUM\0000)
[000D28EA] Enumerated Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator
(ROOT\SWENUM\0000)
[000D28EB] Enumerating Microsoft Kernel System Renderer
(SW\{A7C7A5B0-5AF3-11D1-9CED-00A024BF0407}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})
[000D28EC] Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System Renderer
(SW\{A7C7A5B0-5AF3-11D1-9CED-00A024BF0407}\{9B365890-165F-11D0-A195-0020AFD156E4})

[bill in co.]

philo wrote:
> mm wrote:
>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>
>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>
>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>
>>
>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>
>>
> <snip>
>
>
> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive
>
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512

In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
happened, mm.

[mm]

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:09 -0700, "Bill in Co."
<not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:

>philo wrote:
>> mm wrote:
>>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>>
>>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>>
>>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive

Thanks
>>
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512
>
>In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
>happened, mm.

Thanks. I couldn't remember which command, and my alternate operating
system has mail and usenet but no web.

[mm]

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:20:09 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:09 -0700, "Bill in Co."
><not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>philo wrote:
>>> mm wrote:
>>>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>>>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>>>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>>>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>>>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>>>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>>>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>>>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>>>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>>>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>>>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>>>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>>>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>>>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>>>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive
>
>Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512
>>
>>In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
>>happened, mm.
>
>Thanks. I couldn't remember which command, and my alternate operating
>system has mail and usenet but no web.


Well, that did it. Thanks a lot. I wish I could remember all this
stuff.


But it took a couple extra steps and I wonder why.

I did scanreg /restore and again it did all the startup, or most, and
the harddrive light went on and stayed on and the cursor wouldn't
move, so I did alt-cntl-del and nothing was marked Not Responding, so
I ended some unimportant start-up accessory, like mixer or type32 or
solitaire. Still the light was on and the cursor didn't move so I
calt-delete and did another.

Still light and cursor but I noticed that the light on the CD drive
kept flickering, so I remembered that the bad CD might still be there
and I moved the bad CD that was in the drive and restarted without any
scanreg, and now it's fine.

I know at startup it checks if there is a cd drive, but does it
actually try to read a file with the drive? If not, why does it
matter if there is a bad CD in it or not?

And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just return
an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
from working? They must have planned for this.

No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?

Thanks again.

[mm]

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:20:09 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:09 -0700, "Bill in Co."
><not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>philo wrote:
>>> mm wrote:
>>>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>>>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>>>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>>>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>>>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>>>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>>>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>>>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>>>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>>>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>>>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>>>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>>>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>>>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>>>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive
>
>Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512
>>
>>In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
>>happened, mm.
>
>Thanks. I couldn't remember which command, and my alternate operating
>system has mail and usenet but no web.

And how does trying to read a bad file mess up the registry? I
thought that was one role of the operating system, to handle reads and
writes, and to handle the ones that don't go well.


And what if last night I had also installed a program that uses the
registry? When I installed yesterday's registry, would that have
also uninstalled the program I just installed?

Venting, but curious.

Thanks.

[bill in co.]

mm wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:20:09 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:09 -0700, "Bill in Co."
>> <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> philo wrote:
>>>> mm wrote:
>>>>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>>>>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>>>>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>>>>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>>>>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>>>>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>>>>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>>>>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>>>>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>>>>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>>>>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>>>>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>>>>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>>>>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>>>>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive
>>
>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512
>>>
>>> In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
>>> happened, mm.
>>
>> Thanks. I couldn't remember which command, and my alternate operating
>> system has mail and usenet but no web.
>
> And how does trying to read a bad file mess up the registry? I
> thought that was one role of the operating system, to handle reads and
> writes, and to handle the ones that don't go well.

Reading a bad file would not normally create a permanent problem (i.e., you
could just reboot, and it would normally be ok, without having to restore
the registry). But you should generally clear the CD drive or floppy
drive before doing a scanreg /restore operation, as you don't need that
added layer of junk for the system to process.

> And what if last night I had also installed a program that uses the
> registry?

Nearly anytime you install a program, it makes entries into the registry.
The registry stores much of its program settings and configuration in there.

> When I installed yesterday's registry, would that have
> also uninstalled the program I just installed?

If you restore the registry to an earlier date, that program will be
uninstalled, (except for those few programs that run without installers,
like some portable ones). Actually, as far as the computer is concerned, it
was never installed (if using a prior registry backup), However, its
program files will still be left on the disk, but windows will be unaware of
it, and it will need to be reinstalled. (Normally when a program is
uninstalled BOTH its program files and registry settings are removed, so
saying that rolling back to a previous registry "uninstalls" the program
isn't quite fully accurate

[philo]

mm wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:20:09 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:00:09 -0700, "Bill in Co."
>> <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> philo wrote:
>>>> mm wrote:
>>>>> How could this cause such a problem: The only unusual thing I did
>>>>> last night was try to use an external harddrive which had either a
>>>>> file problem or a directory problem. Now windows 98SE won't start,
>>>>> even though the drive is not connected anymore. It gets to the
>>>>> desktop, displays all the icons, starts all the programs that should
>>>>> be in the systray, then the harddrive light goes on and stays on, and
>>>>> the cursor won't move anymore, cntl-alt-delete might work and then it
>>>>> says that one or more programs is not responding. If I end that
>>>>> program, the light is still on, the cursor still won't move, and
>>>>> eventually cntl-alt-delete won't do anything either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing I can do is press Reset and let it reboot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, yeah, I also tried to burn a CD, probably from a bad file. I tried
>>>>> BrnImg and Nero and neither would do it. Both ended with errors, but
>>>>> I'm not trying anymore and I've rebooted 7 times since then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the end of my bootlog. I don't remember seeing before the
>>>>> lines at the bottom, about " Enumerated Microsoft Kernel System
>>>>> Renderer". Maybe they're new, maybe they represent the problem, or
>>>>> maybe they weren't at the bottom before. Any help is appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> restore the registry to the day prior to connecting the external drive
>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/221512
>>> In DOS mode, use scanreg /restore to select the one BEFORE this problem
>>> happened, mm.
>> Thanks. I couldn't remember which command, and my alternate operating
>> system has mail and usenet but no web.
>
>
> Well, that did it. Thanks a lot. I wish I could remember all this
> stuff.
>
>
> But it took a couple extra steps and I wonder why.
>
> I did scanreg /restore and again it did all the startup, or most, and
> the harddrive light went on and stayed on and the cursor wouldn't
> move, so I did alt-cntl-del and nothing was marked Not Responding, so
> I ended some unimportant start-up accessory, like mixer or type32 or
> solitaire. Still the light was on and the cursor didn't move so I
> calt-delete and did another.
>
> Still light and cursor but I noticed that the light on the CD drive
> kept flickering, so I remembered that the bad CD might still be there
> and I moved the bad CD that was in the drive and restarted without any
> scanreg, and now it's fine.
>
> I know at startup it checks if there is a cd drive, but does it
> actually try to read a file with the drive? If not, why does it
> matter if there is a bad CD in it or not?
>
> And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just return
> an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
> or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
> from working? They must have planned for this.
>
> No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?
>
> Thanks again.


Glad you got it working

Of course I had no idea you had a bad cd in your drive...
had I known that I would have simply told you to take it out.

I've seen bad cd's do a lot of "funny" things including locking up a
system solid

["j. p. gilliver]

In message <hgad24$4e4$1@news.eternal-september.org>, philo
<philo@privacy.invalid> writes:
>mm wrote:
[]
>> And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just
>>return
>> an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
>> or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
>> from working? They must have planned for this.
>> No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?
>> Thanks again.
>
>
>Glad you got it working
>
>Of course I had no idea you had a bad cd in your drive...
>had I known that I would have simply told you to take it out.
>
>I've seen bad cd's do a lot of "funny" things including locking up a
>system solid

Likewise.

It isn't just a matter of "can't read medium". Sometimes a bad CD sort
of can be read, but there's something about the read that ties the OS in
knots. It's not quite the same as just not being able to read.

It happens _less_ with later OSs - such a "bad" CD can still make them
huff and puff, but they are more often able to retain enough control for
you at least to be able to eject the problem disc. I'm not sure it isn't
_possible_ to lock up, say, an XP system with a(n un)suitable disc,
though.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

All I ask is to _prove_ that money can't make me happy.

[mm]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:10:09 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <hgad24$4e4$1@news.eternal-september.org>, philo
><philo@privacy.invalid> writes:
>>mm wrote:
>[]
>>> And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just
>>>return
>>> an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
>>> or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
>>> from working? They must have planned for this.
>>> No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?
>>> Thanks again.
>>
>>
>>Glad you got it working
>>
>>Of course I had no idea you had a bad cd in your drive...

Of course.

>>had I known that I would have simply told you to take it out.
>>
>>I've seen bad cd's do a lot of "funny" things including locking up a
>>system solid

Wow. Doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a bad car in my
driveway would keep the dishwasher from working in the house.

>Likewise.
>
>It isn't just a matter of "can't read medium". Sometimes a bad CD sort
>of can be read, but there's something about the read that ties the OS in
>knots. It's not quite the same as just not being able to read.
>
>It happens _less_ with later OSs -

Glad to hear it.

>such a "bad" CD can still make them
>huff and puff, but they are more often able to retain enough control for
>you at least to be able to eject the problem disc.

I was able to eject the disk, but had to reboot.

> I'm not sure it isn't
>_possible_ to lock up, say, an XP system with a(n un)suitable disc,
>though.

Let me start from the beginning. I was backing up a friend's hard
drive to a portable harddrive of mine, using XXCOPY, which is a very
much enhanced DOS program similar to XCOPY but with many many more
options.

Normally one can interrupt it by pressing cntl-C, and sometimes I do
this to increase the number of files I want to exclude from a back up.
Adding some directory or *.tmp files for example. This time it was
copying an .iso file, 100's of megabytes, and I wanted to cancel the
execution and exclude all other .iso files. Cntl-C did nothing. I
realize now it probabably only interrupts between files but I thought
then something was wrong, so I went to cntl-alt-delete and ended the
whole dos box.

Then I started again, and later did the same interruption routine
again, complete with cntl-alt-delete.

When I got home, I checked and the iso file was there, 600 and
something megabytes. Since I had the file I wanted to make a CD.
Getting there with windows explorer froze WE and I had to reboot, so I
got there through a dos box and copied the iso file to my harddrive.
The copy worked fine.

Then I used imgburn to make a CD. It stopped close to the end with
an error message that googles said might be a cheap blank cd (I was
using Staples brand. ) or old firmware for a CD writer. So I
threw that CD away and tried a fresh blank CD with NERO. That ended
quickly, with an obscure error message. I left it in the tray and
went on to do other things. I don't remember when I had to reboot
after that.

IF the file was so bad on my portable harddrive, how was a dos command
able to copy it. If it was bad before it was copied, how could it
still be bad after it's copied. What is bad about it? Any set of
bits should be a good file, although I guess not a good CD image file.

Shouldn't Imgburn and NERO be able to do something at the end so they
don't create a computer-numbing CD?

Anyhow, that's how I got into the mess I was in.

[bill in co.]

mm wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:10:09 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
> <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <hgad24$4e4$1@news.eternal-september.org>, philo
>> <philo@privacy.invalid> writes:
>>> mm wrote:
>> []
>>>> And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just
>>>> return
>>>> an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
>>>> or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
>>>> from working? They must have planned for this.
>>>> No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?
>>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>>
>>> Glad you got it working
>>>
>>> Of course I had no idea you had a bad cd in your drive...
>
> Of course.
>
>>> had I known that I would have simply told you to take it out.
>>>
>>> I've seen bad cd's do a lot of "funny" things including locking up a
>>> system solid
>
> Wow. Doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a bad car in my
> driveway would keep the dishwasher from working in the house.

Well, not quite. More akin to having a wrecked car in your garage that
could prevent the garage door opener from being able to open the garage
door, which it could, under some circumstances.

>> Likewise.
>>
>> It isn't just a matter of "can't read medium". Sometimes a bad CD sort
>> of can be read, but there's something about the read that ties the OS in
>> knots. It's not quite the same as just not being able to read.
>>
>> It happens _less_ with later OSs -
>
> Glad to hear it.

XP (with NTFS, and maybe without - who knows) is much more robust. (says a
pretty well converted old 98SE fan

>> such a "bad" CD can still make them
>> huff and puff, but they are more often able to retain enough control for
>> you at least to be able to eject the problem disc.
>
> I was able to eject the disk, but had to reboot.
>
>> I'm not sure it isn't
>> _possible_ to lock up, say, an XP system with a(n un)suitable disc,
>> though.
>
> Let me start from the beginning. I was backing up a friend's hard
> drive to a portable harddrive of mine, using XXCOPY, which is a very
> much enhanced DOS program similar to XCOPY but with many many
> more options.

Why not just do it in windows? Why bother with XXCOPY?

> Normally one can interrupt it by pressing cntl-C, and sometimes I do
> this to increase the number of files I want to exclude from a back up.
> Adding some directory or *.tmp files for example. This time it was
> copying an .iso file, 100's of megabytes, and I wanted to cancel the
> execution and exclude all other .iso files. Cntl-C did nothing.

But if it did interrupt the copy operation, who knows what state it would
have been left in. Using Ctrl-C is a pretty drastic halt (brake)
operation.

> I realize now it probabably only interrupts between files but I thought
> then something was wrong, so I went to cntl-alt-delete and ended the
> whole dos box.
>
> Then I started again, and later did the same interruption routine
> again, complete with cntl-alt-delete.

I doubt if the operating system really appreciated that. Who knows what
state it was left in, then.

> When I got home, I checked and the iso file was there, 600 and
> something megabytes. Since I had the file I wanted to make a CD.
> Getting there with windows explorer froze WE and I had to reboot, so I
> got there through a dos box and copied the iso file to my harddrive.
> The copy worked fine.
>
> Then I used imgburn to make a CD. It stopped close to the end with
> an error message that googles said might be a cheap blank cd (I was
> using Staples brand. ) or old firmware for a CD writer. So I
> threw that CD away and tried a fresh blank CD with NERO. That ended
> quickly, with an obscure error message. I left it in the tray and
> went on to do other things. I don't remember when I had to reboot
> after that.
>
> IF the file was so bad on my portable harddrive, how was a dos command
> able to copy it. If it was bad before it was copied, how could it
> still be bad after it's copied. What is bad about it? Any set of
> bits should be a good file, although I guess not a good CD image file.

Which is entirely possible.

[mm]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:42:44 -0700, "Bill in Co."
<not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote:

>mm wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:10:09 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>> <G6JPG@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <hgad24$4e4$1@news.eternal-september.org>, philo
>>> <philo@privacy.invalid> writes:
>>>> mm wrote:
>>> []
>>>>> And how can a bad CD cause this much havoc? Should't it just
>>>>> return
>>>>> an error code which then returns a message, "Can't read medium" or CD,
>>>>> or something. What if it were a Mac CD. Would it stop the computer
>>>>> from working? They must have planned for this.
>>>>> No offense meant but would this happen in later OSes?
>>>>> Thanks again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glad you got it working
>>>>
>>>> Of course I had no idea you had a bad cd in your drive...
>>
>> Of course.
>>
>>>> had I known that I would have simply told you to take it out.

Of course.
>>>>
>>>> I've seen bad cd's do a lot of "funny" things including locking up a
>>>> system solid
>>
>> Wow. Doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a bad car in my
>> driveway would keep the dishwasher from working in the house.
>
>Well, not quite. More akin to having a wrecked car in your garage that
>could prevent the garage door opener from being able to open the garage
>door, which it could, under some circumstances.
>
>>> Likewise.
>>>
>>> It isn't just a matter of "can't read medium". Sometimes a bad CD sort
>>> of can be read, but there's something about the read that ties the OS in
>>> knots. It's not quite the same as just not being able to read.
>>>
>>> It happens _less_ with later OSs -
>>
>> Glad to hear it.
>
>XP (with NTFS, and maybe without - who knows) is much more robust. (says a
>pretty well converted old 98SE fan

It does work better on XP, but not perfectly.

I dug the CD out of the wastebasket and tried it in XP. It booted
fine, but eventually I did this. I had downloaded a zip file and I
tried to call it up with PowerDesk, an enhanced version of Windows
Explorer**, which will tell you what is in a zip file without your
needing to unzip it. Someone WinExplorer opened, so I right clicked
on the entry there, and clicked on PowerDesk or something related, and
nothing happened. I did this several times. Soon I noticed that the
CD light was staying on, and I alt-tabbed to another window and found
a warning box that said it couldn't open something, Retry or Cancel or
maybe some third option. Now there was nothing wrong with the file I
was trying to look at, but PowerDesk got stymied just trying to start
up, because it looks at the CD drivess and tries to say in the list of
drives the name of the CD that is in them. I just had to click
Cancel serveral times, and wonder why the boxes didn't show up on top
so I would know about them earlier.

I'm still not positive WExp would have done a better job. Well, I
guess it did becuase it opened. It's a reflection I guess of the fact
that PowerDEsk does more, like putting the names of CD's in the list
of drives. I don't remember if WExp does this.

I'd also like to try it again in win98, even though I tried it twice
already, and I thought it froze without my ever trying to open
PowerDesk or WinExp.


I have PowerDesk5 which is the last version that works on win98, if
anyone needs it. It might also be online. For XP I have PowerDesk6
and there is 7 now but that might do so much it would confuse me. (PD
is free but then they ask for money. PD6 was not written by the
people who have it now, they must have bought it. I don't like the new
owners V-com. They are the only software vendor who have messed me up
and they did it twice.)

>>> such a "bad" CD can still make them
>>> huff and puff, but they are more often able to retain enough control for
>>> you at least to be able to eject the problem disc.
>>
>> I was able to eject the disk, but had to reboot.
>>
>>> I'm not sure it isn't
>>> _possible_ to lock up, say, an XP system with a(n un)suitable disc,
>>> though.
>>
>> Let me start from the beginning. I was backing up a friend's hard
>> drive to a portable harddrive of mine, using XXCOPY, which is a very
>> much enhanced DOS program similar to XCOPY but with many many
>> more options.
>
>Why not just do it in windows? Why bother with XXCOPY?

I'm used to XXCOPY. I know how it works. It has loads of options so
one can copy just what one wants, selecting by date or name or
whatever. It copies more files that Windows copy complains about.

And oh, yeah, if there is a bad file or two in the middle of copying
100 files, or a file that is locked I'm almost sure, whenusing WinExp
or PowerDesk it stops and one has to work around the bad files. And
one only learns the name of one of them at a time. You have to do it
again to find the names of others.

With XXCOPY, it writes a error line and keeps going. The more files
and more subdirectories one is doing at the same time, the greater
advantage it is that it doesn't stop.

>> Normally one can interrupt it by pressing cntl-C, and sometimes I do
>> this to increase the number of files I want to exclude from a back up.
>> Adding some directory or *.tmp files for example. This time it was
>> copying an .iso file, 100's of megabytes, and I wanted to cancel the
>> execution and exclude all other .iso files. Cntl-C did nothing.
>
>But if it did interrupt the copy operation, who knows what state it would
>have been left in. Using Ctrl-C is a pretty drastic halt (brake)
>operation.

No, it works just fine if I do no more than cntl-C. It stops copying
after it finishes the file it's working on. When one runs it again,
it has to scan all the files it scanned before, and you get "can't
copy" for probably every file it couldn't copy before, but it doesn't
try to copy any of the ones that were successfully copied and it just
continues where it left off.

But the .iso file was 600 meg and I didn't want to wait that long.

The problem was that I used task manager to cancel the copy in the
middle of a file. (I don't know why I do things like that, but partly
because this was the second time I was over there trying to back up
their files before I did work on their computer, and I take the
back-up drive with me when I leave (they have rambunctious children),
and I wanted to finish. ) I was at a party they were hosting so I
tried to spend only a little time working on the computer.

>> I realize now it probabably only interrupts between files but I thought
>> then something was wrong, so I went to cntl-alt-delete and ended the
>> whole dos box.
>>
>> Then I started again, and later did the same interruption routine
>> again, complete with cntl-alt-delete.
>
>I doubt if the operating system really appreciated that. Who knows what
>state it was left in, then.

Well it's got that bad file, which if I can remember where it is in
the directory, I will probably have to use a dos box to delete without
deleting everything else. Otherwise, I'll have to delete the whole
directory it is in. (Another advantage of DOS and not using a GUI.
I have to go over there again, so I should be able to find the full
path to the file by looking at the original. Then I'll come home and

>> When I got home, I checked and the iso file was there, 600 and
>> something megabytes. Since I had the file I wanted to make a CD.
>> Getting there with windows explorer froze WE and I had to reboot, so I
>> got there through a dos box and copied the iso file to my harddrive.
>> The copy worked fine.
>>
>> Then I used imgburn to make a CD. It stopped close to the end with
>> an error message that googles said might be a cheap blank cd (I was
>> using Staples brand. ) or old firmware for a CD writer. So I
>> threw that CD away and tried a fresh blank CD with NERO. That ended
>> quickly, with an obscure error message. I left it in the tray and
>> went on to do other things. I don't remember when I had to reboot
>> after that.
>>
>> IF the file was so bad on my portable harddrive, how was a dos command
>> able to copy it. If it was bad before it was copied, how could it
>> still be bad after it's copied. What is bad about it? Any set of
>> bits should be a good file, although I guess not a good CD image file.
>
>Which is entirely possible.
>